Proposal: Changes to PF Judicial System

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Re: Proposal: Changes to PF Judicial System

Post by NoxRaven » Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:18 am

Ok, so you are going to let the CO's have full, direct, and complete control over everything that goes on on their ship period? With all due respect, that is a terrible idea.

Also to refute your statement I have re-read over the Judicial Code of practice and it seems to be almost in line with any other as you call it "traditional" fleet management style which is as it should be. Again no disrespect intended but CO's have enough on their plate as does the admiralty to even try to regulate such a thing.

Also, say for instance a CO just blatantly does whatever he feels like across the board. Say he keeps a certain player down on his sim simply because he doesn't like that player? What are they to do? If you just put it in the hands of the CO's directly he really has no other recourse. But, for the sake of argument lets say this player goes to the TFCO. However, the TFCO feels the same way about the person. Then what? Are the admirals going to take the time to listen to each and every case that comes up to be appealed? They would never get anything else done if that were the case.

It's for reasons such as these that the office of JAG was created. If as you are saying the one disappeared. Why hasn't another been put in place yet? With the appropriate people in place, this conversation I would likely say would not be occurring. I understand that you want to make your CO's feel more inclusive. However, the power of judicial functioning should not solely rest with them. Even in the RL Navy, a Captain's Mast can only be called for minor infractions. Anything more than that and a full judicial hearing must take place and JAG takes over.

With all due respect what you are trying to put forth is pure chaos and I must argue against its implementation very vehemently.
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Re: Proposal: Changes to PF Judicial System

Post by Joe_Rhimer » Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:36 am

I'm serious here, guys: Please read everything that is being said. Ask questions, don't make assumptions. This isn't meant to be a fight or an argument, it's an open discussion around the idea. I see arguments getting made, but a lot of them (not all) are against assumptions, not actually what we're trying to do.

So, Nox, onto quick point corrections:
1.) "We're giving COs complete control of their ships" - Negative. No one said anything like that in this thread, I'm not sure where you got that idea. The COs would have more say in decisions that would have gone to JAG normally, nothing else is changing.

2.) Of course the Judicial Code of practices haven't changed. We haven't passed anything new yet. We're discussing that here. We wouldn't change the Judicial code of practices until a new set of rules has been accepted and voted on by the COs. My review the constitution and policies was on how we manage updates to them and what is expected of the COs and how they're expected to operate. We let you guys have a lot more freedom than most fleets, and I think most of our COs understand that.

3.) Preferential treatment can even happen in the JAG office, so really... that argument is moot. By having a panel of COs review, we're hoping to avoid unfair treatment. Because the likelihood of 3-5 COs being Chosen at random to review something and ALL of them being unfair against the player is very very slim. Unfortunately, you're assuming that people in the JAG office are always above reproach themselves, and that's sadly not the case.

4.) As far as replacing the JAG officer, once again (as it's been mentioned twice now), we were unaware that she'd gone off the radar as we had no need of her services in years now and she's not a regular part of PFA or PF (in an attempt to ensure neutrality). When we realized how pointless the office was most of the time, we began devising a new plan.

There's no need to vehemently argue anything, and (sorry) but all the points that you've made aren't really relevant to the plan we're trying to pitch here.
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Re: Proposal: Changes to PF Judicial System

Post by NoxRaven » Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:44 am

Then who is going to act as your checks and balances? From what I have seen you are saying you are going to combine the executive, judicial, and legislative parts of the fleet all into one pot. With all due respect that is nothing more than setting the bed for possible future tyranny.

Now as to the points, you have not addressed. Who or what is the last stop gap? Who in the end has the ultimate authority to say no..this case has been heard, appealed, the decision stands? If the admirals are going to be that. Then again my previous statement still stands that they would never get anything else done due to it.

As to what you are saying of preferential treatment. That's not what I was referring to. So you obviously did not read the statement carefully enough as you are bidding us to do. What I stated and what I asked there. Was with this "tribunal" as you call it. If, just for the sake of argument the CO's all banded together in the case because they didn't like who the case was against and just carte blanche found them guilty..even if they weren't. Who do they appeal to? Where do they go? Who is the checks and balances for unfair treatment in that case? Also who is going to be there representation in such a case? If you have no JAG then you again are going to have to train everyone in the fleet to be a lawyer in case something does go on.

So no...I have to be against this "plan" you are trying to role out as from what I see it is nothing but pure chaos waiting to happen.
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Re: Proposal: Changes to PF Judicial System

Post by Stannes » Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:56 am

Question: Why are we criminalizing our COs or assuming that they'll collude to avoid justice? I understand that there can be the worst of people out there. That's part of why we are so stringent about vetting COs. But if we treat everyone as a potential criminal, how do manage to be a community sim? We can't look at it from this angle of assuming the worst. Nothing grows under that scrutiny. Let's please keep these conversations objective, fair and constructive.
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Re: Proposal: Changes to PF Judicial System

Post by NoxRaven » Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:03 am

I'm not criminalizing anyone as you put it. What I am doing is looking at it from the opposite end of the spectrum and playing devil's advocate. If you do not put the proper checks and balances in place from the beginning to minimize such things or to effectively combat them when they come up. Then the "community" you are wanting to build will fall apart because it will drive people away.

I understand you take the time to try to "feel" people out before putting them in positions of authority. However, there are always those that slip through the cracks or fool you. But those select few can have a serious detrimental effect upon what you are trying to accomplish. I love this community or I wouldn't be here. That means I do need to ask the questions when something like this comes about so we have all looked at every possible angle that might come about because of it. If that means I have to hold the enmity of the command staff because of it then so be it. However, I will do everything that I can to help keep this place the happy, fun, and purely exuberant environment that I have grown to love.
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Re: Proposal: Changes to PF Judicial System

Post by Stannes » Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:30 am

We love it, too. Thank you Nox.
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Re: Proposal: Changes to PF Judicial System

Post by Joe_Rhimer » Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:42 am

Hey Nox,

So to go and reanswer your question, let me try to explain the process step by step.

Player issue -
Problem arises with player, player goes to XO.
Issue not resolved, player goes to CO.
Issue not resolved, player goes to TFCO.
Issue not resolved. player goes to CFOps.
Issue not resolved, player goes to full PFA.
PFA would make a final judgement in this case.
Player disagrees with the judgement and appeals to the PFA.
PFA calls a COs council and presents them with the information.
Player can request an advocate (a position I've mentioned a couple of times now) who is trained to help mediate and represent, or can represent themselves.
COs are chosen for the tribunal, excluding PFA and any COs closely tied to the situation (Ship CO, and any COs that may serve with them on the ship in question).
CO tribunal reviews the case, and arguments by advocates if any, determine the outcome. The CO Council is the final word on the matter.

Issue with Fleet Law -
The fleet law issue is simple, because the changes are already voted on by the COs. It's e-mailed to every CO, and usually announced in the meetings and the monthly update. They already have say if the rules change or not, so it's difficult to do anything shady there. And things such as Executive Orders have limitations to keep us from ruling by them. So there's a lot of checks and balances in place there already.

Issues with PFA -
See above. In the case where a PFA ruling is questioned, the CO Council (a council of 5 when the PFA is being challenged) would review the findings and determine if the PFA ruled within the rules of the Constitution.

This way, we lead, but we're still checked by our COs who are randomly chosen.


Does that make more sense? I still feel like you're arguing issues that aren't there :)
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Re: Proposal: Changes to PF Judicial System

Post by Hawkins » Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:53 pm

JAG is still a department required to keep up to date and most knowledgeable about the constitution, policies and final rulings of the fleet. Falling on the COs to know all of this information or taking more time for them all to catch up on things a little iffy. The idea, on paper, is sound. You give the CO's the final say. But do they not already do this by voting rules and regulations into the constitution itself? By doing that alone, they are in control even if that isn't seen up front.

The position is in question, not the reliability of JAG, from what I can see. Checks and balances are in place by the COs who continue to vote rules and regulations. JAG is just the one that keeps up to date date with those rules. UNLIKE the COs that are supposed to be at random, causing possible favoritism for the one in question, the JAG is assigned to be the only one person that isn't swayed by favoritism, but focused on the facts and what are in line with what has already been established. This means, they are to be respected by all members that are focused on giving all sides a fair and equal judgement. JAG is the face of those rules and policies laid out by the People, and for the people. Its like the saying "It is better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it."

Additionally, I was asked... What would you do on a daily basis if assigned such a position. Unlike other departments, they don't have an as active position unlike COps, PFA, or the Academy. Good point, and I completely agree, to a certain extent. If you take into account the fact of other factors in mind, does Recruiting do something... every day? What about R&D? Not all departments work EVERYDAY in the gaming community. Its not a job, like in real life, but volunteering a members time, knowledge, and skill to our community. (Yay, i can say Our and not yours :-P)

Lastly, I point out that in Real Life, I am a military member. We have JAG, which is rarely talked about and as far as our base, ever used... But they are on call and paid a yearly salary, and they aren't the only service on base that we rarely talk about but the services are there, not because they are maintaining our planes, guns or medical... they are there for the people of all ranks and positions. I wanted to dig a little deeper into the position to get a more stronger understanding of it. And this is what i got.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge_Adv ... %27s_Corps

Judge Advocate General's Corps, also known as JAG or JAG Corps, refers to the legal branch or specialty of a military concerned with military justice and military law. Officers serving in a JAG Corps are typically called Judge Advocates. Only the chief attorney within each branch is referred to as the "Judge Advocate General"; however, individual JAG Corps officers are colloquially known as JAGs.
Judge Advocates serve primarily as legal advisors to the command to which they are assigned. In this function, they can also serve as the personal legal advisor to their commander. Their advice may cover a wide range of issues dealing with administrative law, government contracting, civilian and military personnel law, law of war and international relations, environmental law, etc. They also serve as prosecutors for the military when conducting courts-martial. In the United States military, they are charged with both the defense and prosecution of military law as provided in the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Highly experienced officers of the JAG Corps often serve as military judges in courts-martial and courts of inquiry.

So even though they aren't an active role in day to day operations, they are a service for when it comes up. I see both sides, and I can argue both sides. I think there is an equal balance still, even if the JAG position is here in the fleet. The only real argument I see is, not the position, cause we can wing this either way, but are we, as a fleet, able to find someone that is reliable and willing to stay through it longer than what others have in the past? If we had a JAG member there that was reliable and followed what rules were outlined by the CO and people... than I highly doubt we would be having this conversation, because it was already filled and held. But if this was an argument that would have stemmed with it still filled, than we have an argument of removing the position... IF ANYTHING MADE SINCE THERE lol.

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Re: Proposal: Changes to PF Judicial System

Post by Yunalesca » Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:34 am

Hawkins wrote:JAG is still a department required to keep up to date and most knowledgeable about the constitution, policies and final rulings of the fleet. Falling on the COs to know all of this information or taking more time for them all to catch up on things a little iffy. The idea, on paper, is sound. You give the CO's the final say. But do they not already do this by voting rules and regulations into the constitution itself? By doing that alone, they are in control even if that isn't seen up front.
-Covered this repeatedly. Yes. COs vote on rules, and constitution changes. However, we are attempting to put forward an open, democratic, and welcoming community. This suits our needs. I'll get back to this point.
Hawkins wrote:The position is in question, not the reliability of JAG, from what I can see. Checks and balances are in place by the COs who continue to vote rules and regulations. JAG is just the one that keeps up to date date with those rules. UNLIKE the COs that are supposed to be at random, causing possible favoritism for the one in question, the JAG is assigned to be the only one person that isn't swayed by favoritism, but focused on the facts and what are in line with what has already been established. This means, they are to be respected by all members that are focused on giving all sides a fair and equal judgement. JAG is the face of those rules and policies laid out by the People, and for the people. Its like the saying "It is better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it."
In countenance, I have been the victim of the exact opposite of favoritism, by a JAG official in another fleet, with no recourse available. The ideation of taking all judiciary decisions out of a single person's hand would seem to be more inviting, and allow for much more thorough discussions. I also presume that there would be a method for the available council to ask a person to step away, as they had a conflict of interest, be it positive, or negative.
Hawkins wrote:Lastly, I point out that in Real Life, I am a military member. We have JAG, which is rarely talked about and as far as our base, ever used... But they are on call and paid a yearly salary, and they aren't the only service on base that we rarely talk about but the services are there, not because they are maintaining our planes, guns or medical... they are there for the people of all ranks and positions. I wanted to dig a little deeper into the position to get a more stronger understanding of it. And this is what i got.

Judge Advocate General's Corps, also known as JAG or JAG Corps, refers to the legal branch or specialty of a military concerned with military justice and military law. Officers serving in a JAG Corps are typically called Judge Advocates. Only the chief attorney within each branch is referred to as the "Judge Advocate General"; however, individual JAG Corps officers are colloquially known as JAGs.
Judge Advocates serve primarily as legal advisors to the command to which they are assigned. In this function, they can also serve as the personal legal advisor to their commander. Their advice may cover a wide range of issues dealing with administrative law, government contracting, civilian and military personnel law, law of war and international relations, environmental law, etc. They also serve as prosecutors for the military when conducting courts-martial. In the United States military, they are charged with both the defense and prosecution of military law as provided in the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Highly experienced officers of the JAG Corps often serve as military judges in courts-martial and courts of inquiry.

So even though they aren't an active role in day to day operations, they are a service for when it comes up. I see both sides, and I can argue both sides. I think there is an equal balance still, even if the JAG position is here in the fleet. The only real argument I see is, not the position, cause we can wing this either way, but are we, as a fleet, able to find someone that is reliable and willing to stay through it longer than what others have in the past? If we had a JAG member there that was reliable and followed what rules were outlined by the CO and people... than I highly doubt we would be having this conversation, because it was already filled and held. But if this was an argument that would have stemmed with it still filled, than we have an argument of removing the position... IF ANYTHING MADE SINCE THERE lol.

Paul
This is a group of persons writing fiction together, not an actual military force, despite the fact that the majority of the sims write a non-military militarized force(Starfleet). The ideation that because we are writing a universe where Starfleet JAG exists, we must have one, instead of resolving our differences as a community seems frankly ridiculous to me.

Honestly, people. This is a hobby. We're here to have fun and write together, not militarize ourselves beyond the ability to see the fun. Also, given that we are all technically bound to the Pegasus Fleet Constitution, it's not especially that far of a stretch to ask that COs be familiar enough with Pegasus Fleet's rule sets to determine whether a specific course of action is, or isn't against PF rules.

I'm actually more concerned, not that this may cause some COs a bit of inconvenience, reading up on the rules, now and then, but the fact that COs are actively advocating ignorance of them, given "will you abide by the rules" is literally a question that is an instant denial of application on the CO App, and that we, as COs are the ones voting on establishing new, or amending old rules.

How do you know if you're in violation of said rules, if you're not familiar with them.

And, by extension, I would think something along this line might require amendments to the PFCO Academy, governing this exact issue, so as to ensure that COs are on paper listed as competent of this duty, as with any other they're expected to perform.
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Re: Proposal: Changes to PF Judicial System

Post by Chris » Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:56 pm

Yunalesca wrote:...
This is a group of persons writing fiction together, not an actual military force, despite the fact that the majority of the sims write a non-military militarized force(Starfleet). The ideation that because we are writing a universe where Starfleet JAG exists, we must have one, instead of resolving our differences as a community seems frankly ridiculous to me.

Honestly, people. This is a hobby. We're here to have fun and write together, not militarize ourselves beyond the ability to see the fun. Also, given that we are all technically bound to the Pegasus Fleet Constitution, it's not especially that far of a stretch to ask that COs be familiar enough with Pegasus Fleet's rule sets to determine whether a specific course of action is, or isn't against PF rules.
...
Agreed, 100%. I have always felt strongly that we do indeed need a chain of command - any club or organization or volunteer group needs that. However, we don't always need rigid structures like corporations or militaries. I really don't care if there is a JAG office or not to be honest, but I agree that we SHOULD be able to figure things out as a community - we are a community of writers not space navy warriors.
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