The Treaty of Bajor and the Gamma Quadrant

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CameronM
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Re: The Treaty of Bajor and the Gamma Quadrant

Post by CameronM » Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:05 am

I can totally agree with article 4 being rewritten!

Also the reason that I did write in for That Pran is the attack on San Fransisco. I am due for a rewatch, did they only hit Starfleet? I wasn't sure on that so I wrote it in.

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Re: The Treaty of Bajor and the Gamma Quadrant

Post by Caeslius » Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:05 pm

The Breen target was certainly Starfleet Headquarters, but there's nothing in the canon to say they didn't also hit elsewhere in San Francisco. I'd have to check the episode for the detail, but Memory Alpha notes: "Though their attacking force was destroyed, the Breen inflicted significant death and destruction on San Francisco, and dealt a heavy psychological blow to the Federation." (underline by me).

That being said, perhaps Article 2 could be re-written to be more general, rather than naming names? They might like to name the female changeling, given her particular role in the war, but a more general section would be useful as a basis for future prosecutions of as yet unknown war criminals. The section could say something like "Certain other persons or entities identified by a Special Commission of Inquiry into the conduct of the war by Dominion forces and their allies, shall be tried for war crimes and be entitled to full legal counsel."

Also, there would need to be some kind of joint allied prosecution - I don't think the Klingons or Romulans would necessarily acquiesce to the Federation trying all the alleged war criminals.
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Re: The Treaty of Bajor and the Gamma Quadrant

Post by Alex » Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:57 pm

There probably was collateral damage as a result of the attack on San Fransisco. I guess we should be careful there as far as what constitutes a war crime. War is hell, and civilian populations will sometimes get caught in the crossfire. The city of Dresden was firebombed late in WWII essentially to deal a psychological blow to the German people. The city of Atlanta was torched during the American Civil War to destroy confederate morale. The raid on Earth was intended to have a similar effect. Taking out Starfleet Headquarters would have been a plus, but striking a target that was once thought to be impenetrable would certainly hurt morale.

Since I'm pretty sure it was established that the Founder would face charges for war crimes, I always took that to refer mostly to the destruction of Lakarian City and the bombing of the capital. But the difference here was that the civilians were not attacked for strategic reasons or as collateral, but specifically targeted by the occupying forces. I suppose it would have been like the Germans burning Paris after France had capitulated and the Germans installed a puppet governor. That's all Damar was intended to be by the Dominion. Legate Rocca (Bocca?) was even more so. I know after WWII there were a lot of "war crimes" that were probably made up to give the allies reasons to target the Nazis, though a lot of those charges were most certainly warranted.

Anyway, I like suggestion made by Caeslius. That would give the allies a bit more wiggle room as to how they would handle the Dominion leaders. At this point Thot Gor, Thot Pran, and the Founder were all that were left. Damar and Weyoun were dead, though likely any charges against Damar would have likely have been dropped due to his actions against the Dominion. Rocca I think was most certainly executed by the Jem'Hadar, though that was just speculation. When the Cardassians joined the Allies at the final battle, the Founder ordered him to be removed. He didn't seem like he was very thrilled by what was going to happen next. You could argue that Thot Gor and Thot Pran were merely following orders, Pran arguably more than Gor. It wasn't really established which one was actually in charge. Like I said, I hadn't even noticed that there was a different character. Gor just disappeared after Second Chin'taka, possibly having returned to Breen space.

I also agree that it probably would have been a joint prosecution, though I'm sure the Federation would insist on leading it. I can imagine the trial would have been considerably shorter had the Romulans or Klingons been responsible for it, assuming that the Founder even made it to trial.
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Re: The Treaty of Bajor and the Gamma Quadrant

Post by CameronM » Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:39 am

I am due for a solid rewatch of the series, I put Thor Pron on there because I thought they attacked more than Starfleet Command in SanFran?

Also, I think that giving the Romulans some territory seemed the only plausible way to get them to sign on this treaty as they had one Enemy literally dead on the ground and the other was soon to join them. Though perhaps they made some back channel deal with the Federation that never made it into the treaty?

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Re: The Treaty of Bajor and the Gamma Quadrant

Post by Confusedfire » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:40 am

Didn't the Romulans liberate a planet that was in Federation space? That may be where the backwater deals came into play as the Romulans don't exactly give up territory...I think it was Benzar or something like that but I don't remember what planet it was, but it was shortly after they came into the war.
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Re: The Treaty of Bajor and the Gamma Quadrant

Post by CameronM » Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:50 pm

Alex wrote:I also agree that it probably would have been a joint prosecution, though I'm sure the Federation would insist on leading it. I can imagine the trial would have been considerably shorter had the Romulans or Klingons been responsible for it, assuming that the Founder even made it to trial.
My thoughts exactly, I could see the Klingons not even wanting a trial, and the Rommies wanting a trial just to interrogate her

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Re: The Treaty of Bajor and the Gamma Quadrant

Post by Alex » Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:53 am

Confusedfire wrote:Didn't the Romulans liberate a planet that was in Federation space? That may be where the backwater deals came into play as the Romulans don't exactly give up territory...I think it was Benzar or something like that but I don't remember what planet it was, but it was shortly after they came into the war.
I believe that was the case. The Federation is most certainly going to want that territory back, so they might have had to make some sort of deal with the Romulans. But I think that deal would have been made in a separate treaty. I'm thinking that captured territory should be put into some sort of pool and renegotiated by the Allies as to how it would be split up later. Really though, I'm not sure the Romulans would even need to sign this treaty since most of it would have been restrictions or punishments placed on the Dominion and its allies. I don't believe the Breen ever officially joined the Dominion; they were just allies.
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Re: The Treaty of Bajor and the Gamma Quadrant

Post by CameronM » Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:06 am

Perhaps a separate peace was even floated to or given by the been? They are even more pragmatic than the Romulans

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Re: The Treaty of Bajor and the Gamma Quadrant

Post by Alex » Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:52 pm

True, but Breen representatives were present for the signing of the Treaty of Bajor. My guess is that they might not have been as severely punished as the Dominion and Cardassians, though they might have been punished for being opportunistic. They did launch a surprise attack against Earth before officially announcing that they were joining the war. That could be seen as a pretty serious offense. Thinking about it that way, I could see the allies using the act of war without declaring war as a war crime, if we want to prosecute Thot Gor or Thot Pran that way.

I think the mentions of the Breen in the current version of the Treaty are good. They are to surrender all captured territory and disarm along the Cardassian boarder. Perhaps it should be reworded to withdrawal entirely back within Breen space. Since they joined the war so late, they probably won't loose much, though the allies would probably call for some sort of reparations. Perhaps an arms restriction or resource production to be ceded to the Allies? Perhaps it wouldn't be as great of restriction, but then again, the allies would want to make sure that they don't try to take advantage of the weakened state of all those involved. Arms reductions for the Dominion would be tougher, and would possibly leave them at the mercy of those in the Gamma quadrant. Though it may seem fitting, the Federation might not be that harsh. Just restricting them to the Gamma Quadrant may be enough since it wouldn't threaten the allies. Besides, I got the sense that Odo returning to the Great Link was supposed to mean that he was explaining to them what life was like with the solids, and basically tell them that they need to start playing nice. But that's debatable as to how well it would work.
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Re: The Treaty of Bajor and the Gamma Quadrant

Post by CameronM » Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:09 am

I am sorry for such a slow response, leaving my job has left me with only a small amount of time and simming was put to the side unfortunately but now I am back in force.

So as I see it, we were taking out the Romulans keeping what they have taken.

The Breen are to disarm and reparations along with with draw.

Am I missing any other additions/subtractions?

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